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Safety and Buildings Division Plumbing Advisory Code Council Meeting Summaries

Meeting summaries are considered drafts until approved by council members at a subsequent meeting.
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Plumbing Advisory Code Council meeting, April 17, 2008, 9:30 a.m. to 2:30 p.m., Thompson Bldg, rm 3C, Madison, Wisconsin

Council Members Attendance: Arthur J. Biesek - P; Thomas Boehnen - P; Patrick Casey - P; Hallet Jenkins - P; Dave Jones - A; Gary Kowalke - A; Jeff Kuhn - P; Rudolf Petrowitsch - P; Gene Shumann - P; David Viola - A; Joseph Zoulek - P.

S&B Staff Attendance: Tom Braun, Lynita Docken, Jim Miller, Todd Taylor, Jerry Thompson.

Other Attendance: Jeff Beiriger, Plumbing Heating and Cooling Contractors; Tim Elverman, Local 75, Matthew Marcinak, International Association of Plumbing and Mechanical Officials.

Council meeting summaries from April 2 and January 9 were approved. There were no "Division Updates" from S&B staff.

The council did a section by section review of 44 pages of draft code language. The resulting decisions are reflected in draft proposals for public hearing on July 8, 2008, in Madison. The hearing draft language and hearing announcement are on the S&B WebSite, http://commerce.wi.gov/SB/SB-CodeDevelopment.html#Comm81845

Lynita Docken explained the possible steps in the code change process.
- Council considerations
- Drafting proposals by S&B staff
- Council considerations
- Drafting proposals by S&B staff
- Public Hearing (July 8, 2008)
- Consideration of hearing comments by S&B staff
- Possible council meeting to finalize draft proposals to go to the state legislature for committee considerations. Hope is for this to happen before September 1, 2008.

Meeting adjourned.

April 2, 2008, 9:30 a.m. to 2:30 p.m., Thompson Bldg, rm 3B, Madison, Wisconsin

Council Members Attendance: Arthur J. Biesek - P; Thomas Boehnen - P; Patrick Casey - P; Hallet Jenkins - P; Dave Jones - P; Gary Kowalke - A; Jeff Kuhn - P; Rudolf Petrowitsch - A; Gene Shumann - A; David Viola - A; Joseph Zoulek - P.

S&B Staff Attendance: Lynita Docken, Don Hough, Bruce Meiners, Jim Miller, Todd Taylor, Bob DuPont, Debra Miller (Commerce).

Other Attendance: Dajen Bohacek, Plumbing Mechanical and Sheet Metals Contractors; Jeff Beiriger, Plumbing Heating and Cooling Contractors; Alan Thomas, Cat Iron Soil Pipe Institute; Tom Cottreau, City of Milwaukee; Richard Husar, City of Milwaukee; Jeff Boldt, Wisconsin Healthcare Engineering Assoc.; Wes Zastrow, Local 75.

The January 9 council meeting summary was not approved. It will be considered at the next meeting, which was set for April 17 in Madison.

Division Update
- Lynita Docken said a public hearing could be scheduled in May if the council feels the proposed revision package is ready.
- She noted a planned report concerning plumbing product aspects of the code revisions was being postponed until the April 17 meeting due to S&B staff turnover.
- A Soil and Stormwater Code Advisory Council will start meeting in May to considered erosion control and post construction stormwater issues.
- The Bio-Safety Laboratory subgroup has met. Discussions of the topic have not reached the point of code language proposals
- S&B and the Department of Natural Resources are working on a Memorandum of Understanding concerning stormwater issues.
- Jim Miller said printing of administrative forfeiture forms and staff training has delayed the plumbing licensing-violation citation deployment. A draft table was given to the council members outlining code references related to the forfeiture system. Meeting attendees requested some sort of public reports in the future concerning citations issued. S&B will maintain a computer database of citations.
- Bruce Meiners has been hired as a plumbing plan reviewer in La Crosse. Jerry Thompson is now in Madison as a Plumbing Product Evaluator, the position formerly held by Mike Beckwith. Beckwith has returned for a short period of time to provide training as a limited term employee.
- Air Admittance Valves: Jim Miller said proposed changes to the approval status of air admittance values have been postponed because a manufacturer challenged the process. AAV are still approved as an alternate system and can be installed when meeting all stipulations. A hearing before an administrative law judge is scheduled for July. Council members requested ample notice of any further actions on the subject.
- Jeff Beiringer requested S&B keep itself aware of and involved in legislation concerning the proposed Great Lakes Water Compact.
- Council members expressed concern over March 1 Commercial Building Code changes that affected waterless hand washing in some public buildings. Bob DuPont said the issue is being reconsidered and may be changed during upcoming commercial building code work.
- DuPont reported on recent law changes that will affect S&B:
    - Statewide licensing of electricians, with a 5-year phase-in required.
    - The Wisconsin prohibition on outdoor heating sidewalks was rescinded.
    - A superinsulation requirement for one- and two-family dwellings heated with electricity was repealed.
    - Rules were tightened against conflicts of interest among county employees involved in POWTS programs.
    -Carbon monoxide detectors in certain buildings were mandated, as was development of a detector inspection system.
- DuPont reviewed possible plumbing plan review changes in Comm 2, part of the first consideration of fee changes since 2000. Because law requires different S&B programs to (for the most part) be supported by their own fees, increases will vary across programs. Plumbing license fees cannot be increased, so the need to pay for S&B plumbing programs over the next four years will be supported by an average 26 percent proposed increase in plan review fees. A public hearing on various S&B fee code language is tentatively planned for June.

Multipurpose Piping Systems
Don Hough presented information to the council on MPPs, including a recommendation that Wisconsin adopt the recent 2007 NFPA 13D standard. He also suggested consideration of the definition of what is part of an MPP. Lynita Docken will bring specific code language to the council for the April 17 meeting.

More discussion of draft code language revisions in Comm 80-86 was begun. Discussion is to continue at the April 17 meeting, along with a review of miscellaneous code change revisions.

January 9, 2008, 9:00 a.m. to 2:30 p.m., Tommy G. Thompson Commerce Center, 201 W. Washington, Room 3C, Madison, Wisconsin

Council Member Attendance
Art Biesek - League of WI Municipalities (Present), Thomas Boehnen - Amer. Society of Plumbing Engineers (Chair) (Present), Patrick Casey - WI State AFL-CIO (Present), Hallet Jenkins - City of Milwaukee (Present), Dave Jones - Technical Advisor (Excused), Gary Kowalke - PHCC/MPA WI Assoc. (Absent), Jeff Kuhn - Plbg., Mech., & Sheet Metal Contractors Alliance (Present), Rudolph Petrowitsch - Amer. Society of Sanitary Engineers, WI Chapter (Excused), Gene Shumann - Shumann & Assoc. (Present), David Viola - Plbg. Manufacturers Institute (Absent), Joseph Zoulek - PHCC/MPA WI Assoc. (Present)

Alternates and Guest Attemdance:
Jeff Rasmussen – M.P. Oshkosh, Tom Cottreau – City of Milwaukee, Richard Husan – City of Milwaukee, Alan Thomas – CISPI, Bill Woehlke – AB & I Foundry, Bob Smith – Deery-Pardue & Associates, Jeff Beiriger – Plumbing, Heating, Cooling Contractors Association

Department of Commerce Staff:
Docken, Lynita – Program Development Bureau, Amanda Berry – Program Development Bureau, Jim Miller – Integrated Services Bureau    P

Welcome, Introductions and Review of Agenda:
Thomas Boehnen opened the meeting by welcoming the Council. He reviewed the agenda for the meeting.

Review Progress Report:
Thomas Boehnen reviewed the progress report from the December 5, 2007 meeting. The Council accepted the report as written.

Division Updates:
Lynita Docken updated the members on legislative and Division activity:
•    Mike Beckwith, a product reviewer for Safety & Buildings, will be retiring at the end of January. A replacement has not yet been hired.
•    There is a new plumbing plan reviewer in LaCrosse.
•    Forfeiture and tracer wire rules have passed through the legislature and are ready for adoption. Although there is not an adoption date, agency staff have been preparing and training for the new code to go into effect.
•    A statement of scope is currently being written regarding certification for cross connection surveyors, and a certification requirement for pool contractors.

Discuss code revision suggestions for plumbing products and adoption of standard revisions:
Mike Beckwith discussed the 2007 update to standards in the code changes. He explained that the State of Wisconsin adopts parts of multiple codes. Codes are updated as needed or as soon as possible after the new editions of these standards are released. Some of the changes from previously-adopted standards include:
•    The term ballcock has been changed to anti-siphon fill valve.
•    The cast iron standards will be updated and the CISPI standards, which are currently in the code will be included in this update.
•    Water heater drain valves standard has been withdrawn, but they still must meet general material and pressure requirements, which are located under 84.30 (4) and (5).

Lynita Docken and Jim Miller discussed the following proposed code changes:
•    Comm 82.31 (3) (b) is not proposed to be changed to require a 3” sewer vent for manufactured homes because they are regulated by the federal government.
•    Comm 82.30 (11) (f) 2. is proposed to   be changed to codify the allowance for the corporation cock and dresser coupling to be eliminated for pressurized sewers. Lynita Docken will return with modifications to the current code language.
•    A note is proposed to be added to Comm 81.01 which will provide definitions for parking structures. Definitions are already included in the building code.
•    Comm 82.33 (8) is proposed to not be changed to expand the receptor choices to include the riser of any receptor. Currently the riser of a floor drain, laundry tray and kitchen sink trap are all permitted to be the receptor of an indirect receptor.
•    1 ¼” cleanout size is proposed to serve 1 ¼” pipe and would be included in Table 82.35.
•    In Comm 82.30 (10) (a) 1, the term sewage is proposed to replace the term wastewater.
•    In Table 82.30-3, 1 1/2” building drain is proposed to be added to the column “Pipe Diameter”.

Council discussion of miscellaneous issues:
Jeff Beiriger presented an issue to the Council concerning the statute proposal concerning how to define the term “plumbing”. Currently, plumbing is used in a variety of ways: a verb, an adjective, and a noun. There was a request to consider using plumbing as a noun, and replacing the other types of usage with different words.

Set next meeting adjourn:
The next PACC meeting is scheduled for:
February 6, 2008, 9 a.m. - 2:30 p.m.,
Thompson Commerce Center, Room 3C,
201 W. Washington, Ave., Madison, Wisconsin.

Another meeting is scheduled for:
April 2, 2008 at 9 a.m. - 2:30 p.m.,
Thompson Commerce Center, Room 3B,
201 W. Washington, Ave.,
Madison, Wisconsin.

[These minutes are subject to approval at a future meeting of the Council.]

Wednesday, December 5, 2007, 9:30 a.m. to 2:30 p.m.

Tommy G. Thompson Commerce Center, Third Floor Conference Room #3B, 201 W. Washington Ave., Madison, Wisconsin

COUNCIL MEMBER ATTENDANCE:
Art Biesek (Excused), Thomas Boehnen (Present), Patrick Casey (Present), Hallet Jenkins    (Absent), Gary Kowalke (Absent), Jeff Kuhn (Absent), Rudolph Petrowitsch (Excused), Gene Shumann    (Present), David Viola (Absent), Joseph Zoulek (Present)

VISITORS:
Scott Hamilton, Local 75; Matthew Marciniak, IAPMO; Loretta Trapp, Clack Corporation; Dan Bartz, Kohler Co.; Phil Schrieber, Kohler Co.; Victor Hines, Jr., Charlotte Pipe and Foundry Co.; Rich Davison, Stickler & Assoc.

DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE STAFF:
Lynita Docken, Program Development Bureau; Amanda Berry, Program Development Bureau; Mike Beckwith, Integrated Services Bureau

Welcome and Introductions:
Thomas Boehnen opened the meeting with a round of introductions.

Period of Public Comment:
Representatives from Kohler presented information to the Council concerning the installation, maintenance, cost, and model variations of waterless urinals. Docken stated that some manufacturers’ waterless urinals have submitted for and received an alternate approval under Comm 84. Currently the trap diameter of waterless urinals that have been submitted for approval does not meet the requirement of a 2-inch trap in Comm 82.30. The Council recommended modifying the code in chs. Comm 82 and 84 to include waterless urinals as a code compliant option.

Division Updates:
Lynita Docken updated the members on legislative and Division activity:
•    The Department of Natural Resources and the Office of the Governor is in the process of developing conservation standards to serve as a model for states in the Great Lakes Basin. The DNR will hold a meeting in the spring to discuss the plan.   Groups interested in participating in the development of the plan should contact Jill Jonas of the DNR.
•    The Forfeiture Rules are currently at the legislature. The committees received the draft during the last week of November.
•    The code changes to the building code have been accepted by the legislature. Included in the building code revisions are requirements for sprinkler systems in three- and four-family buildings after the year 2010. At that time, the code would permit multipurpose piping systems as an option for these types of occupancies.

Discussion of Code Revision Suggestions for Softener Sizing:
•    Loretta Trapp from the Clack Corporation proposed code changes to Comm 81-84, which would change sizing requirements for softener heads, to the Council for consideration. The Council recommended the code be revised to permit the use of the conversion table contained in the current alternate approval.

Recommendations for Plumbing Product Code Revisions:
•    Comm 82.40, relating to water supply systems, should be changed to require the rough in of water distribution piping for waterless urinals.
•    Comm 84.20(5)(o)2., relating to water closets, should be changed to allow an exception for prison fixtures to be installed without hinged seats.
•    Mike Beckwith discussed the possible changes to cast iron standards and whether the current code should reflect the 2005 ASTM standards or the 2005 CISPI standards. He suggested that since Comm 84 references both the ASTM and CISPI, both should be adopted. The ???????
•    Comm 84.30, Table 84.30-2, relating to underground drain and vent pipe, should be changed to remove concrete as an acceptable material.
•    Table 84.10, Submittals to Department, should be changed to delete the requirements for the submission of exterior grease interceptors for product review.

The next meeting of the Plumbing Advisory Code Council is scheduled for:
Wednesday, January 9, 2008 at 9:00 a.m.
Tommy G. Thompson Commerce Center
Third Floor Conference Room #3C
201 West Washington Ave.
Madison, WI

Mike Beckwith is planning to attend the next code council meeting to further discuss plumbing product issues and adopted standard updates. He will order A112.19.19, relating to the standards for waterless urinals, for the committee to review.

If you have any questions, please contact Lynita Docken at (608) 785-9349 or email at lynita.docken@wisconsin.gov.

October 24, 2007, Thompson Commerce Center, Madison, Wisconsin

Attending: Tom Cottreau, Hal Jenkins, Richard Husar, Pat Casey, Gene Shumann, Rudolf Petrowitsch, Joe Zoulek, Tom Boehnen, Don Oremus, Lynita Docken, Jim Miller

The meeting was called to order by Tom Boehnen at 9:08 a.m.

There was no public comment.

There was discussion on the law in Minnesota that took effect on January 1, 2007 outlawing air admittance valves and waterless urinals.

Correction: Meeting of September 24, the meeting was called to order at noon, not 9:10 am.

Department Update
Update on Air Admittacnce Valves. Went to American Society of Sanitation Engineers meeting and contributed to suggested changes to the standard. The department is going to a specific site on October 29, to test the AAV’s to see if there are concerns with the existing devices.   The tests will be filmed.

S&B is still working on documentation regarding the usage of AAV’s in Wisconsin.

Lynita attended a World Environmental Federation Technical Exhibition and Conference that discussed climate change, water resources, grease interceptors, etc.

A PowerPoint that was used at the recent plumbing inspectors meeting was shared with the committee.   The inspectors were asked if they were on the code committee, how they would respond to the questions.

S&B is setting up appointments to interview candidates for the Lacrosse plan review position. We continue to be more behind on next available appointment than we wish. The reviewers are on overtime again.

Mike Beckwith is retiring in February of 08. S&B has been given approval to hire someone before he leaves so Mike can train them.

S&B is continuing to work on the adoption of the tracer wire and administrative forfeiture rules. Possible adoption may be in the beginning of 2008.

A motion was made by Gene Shuman that plan reviewers and plumbing consultants should be paid an average union wage that is currently received by a licensed Journeyman plumber. Motion was seconded by Rudy P. Vote was taken and it was unanimously passed.

The committee asked that they be involved in the development of what is considered in conflict of interest.

The committee then discussed the issues as listed in the “proposed drain and vent code changes”.

Next meetings are: December 5, January 9 and February 6 .   Start time is 9 a.m., and will conclude at 2:30 pm.

The meeting was concluded at 2:30.

Tuesday, June 20, 2007, Thompson Commerce Center, Madison, Wisconsin

Members: Biesek, Arthur / League of Wisconsin Municipalities - A; Boehnen, Thomas / American Society of Plumbing Engineers – Wisconsin - Chair - P; Casey, Patrick / Wisconsin AFL-CIO - P; Jenkins, Hal / City of Milwaukee - P; Jones, Dave / Technical Advisor - P; Kowalke, Gary / PHCC/MPA Wisconsin - A; Kuhn, Jeff / Plumbing, Mechanical and Sheet Metal Contractors Alliance - P; Petrowitsch, Rudolf / Society of Sanitary Engineers, Wisconsin Chapter - P; Shumann, Gene / Shumann and Assoc. - P; Viola, David / Plbg. Manufacturers Institute - A; Zoulek, Joseph / Plumbing Heating and Cooling Contractors - A.

Department of Commerce, Safety and Buildings Division Staff: Beckwith, Mike; Docken, Lynita; Miller, Jim; Oremus, Don; Delfosse, Herman; Zickert, Jim.

Alternates and Guests: Davison, Rich / Watts Regulator; Husar, Richard / City of Milwaukee; Stein, Joe / Madison Water Utility.
P/A/Ex/Alt = present, absent, excused, sent alternate.

The meeting was called to order by Tom Boehnen, chair, at 9:03 am.

Public Comment Period: There was no public comment.

- Commerce Update –
Rule package for forfeiture and tracer wire is in the secretaries’ office. Copies of this document will be given to the members.

Update was given on filling the general plumbing consultant and general plumbing plan reviewer.

- Discussed the definition of plumbing regarding storm systems. Hydraulically connected to a building through a 100 year storm it would be one definition. Pat brought up the idea of having a license exemption to allow landscapers to put in culverts, but it is considered plumbing. Jeff B. stated that the law should reflect what we are doing which would mean to change the code to reflect the fact that storm inlets on property without buildings would be considered plumbing.

- Discussed the recent news of a contaminated well in Door County.

- Discussed use of air admittance valves. There are 3 options: To rescind approval, list them as experimental or add conditions to the current approval. The committee was asked to send Don Oremus any information they have regarding valve use (failure or proper operation) by July 20. With this information S&B will make a decision on how these products will be regulated within Wisconsin.

- Discussed Bio Safety Labs. Next meeting of the BSL safety group is July 10 at the AEI Company office to go over the installation/construction concerns.

- Discussed proposed code changes including backflow protection definitions and methods.

- It was decided that the department will gather information on the idea of requiring containment for specific buildings as currently required by American Water Work Association.

The committee meeting ended at 2:20 p.m. The next meetings are scheduled to be held on August 15 and October 17. [This summary is subject to approval at a future meeting of the council.]

Tuesday, February 27, 2007, Tommy G. Thompson Commerce Center - Madison,

Attendees: Biesek, Arthur / League of Wisconsin Municipalities - P; Boehnen, Thomas / Amer. Society of Plumbing Engineers - P; Casey, Patrick / AFL-CIO - P; Jenkins, Hal / City of Milwaukee - P; Jones, Dave / - P; Kowalke, Gary / Plumbing Heating and Cooling Contractors - A; Kuhn, Jeff / Plbg., Mech., and Sheet Metal Contractors - P; Petrowitsch, Rudolf / Amer. Society of Sanitary Engineers - P; Shumann, Gene / Shumann & Assoc. - P; Viola, David / Plbg. Manufacturers Institute - A; Zoulek, Joseph / PHCC - P.

Safety and Buildings Division Staff: Docken, Lynita; Kaminski, Roman; Miller, Jim; Oremus, Don; BeckWisconsinth, Mike

Vistors: Tom Couttreau/City of Milwaukee; David Daniels/Radon Specialists of Wisconsin; Bill Woehlke/AB&I Foundtry; Stein, Joe / Madison Water Utility; Husar, Richard / City of Milwaukee; Thomas, Alan / Cast Iron Soil Pipe Institute; Piskula, Jim / Badgerland Trading Co;     Gregg Carr/ AB & I Foundry; Joe Herkowski/ Herkowski Sales; Jason Schnell /LGD/ASPE; Gary Duren /Code Compliance, Inc; Bob Harley/ National Survey & Engineering; Tim Elverman /Local 75; Jim Piskula, /Badgerland Trading; Tom Beckey, Oatey Co; Mathew Marciniak /IAPMO; Jeff Beiriger / Cook and Franke.

1. The meeting was called to order by Tom Boehnen, chair. at 9:15 am.

2. Public Comment Period
Tom Heine, Radon Scientist provided information to the code council on concerns about the requirements in the plumbing code for venting clearwater sumps that serve as a receptor for foundation drainage and also serve as a vessel for radon elimination from buildings. Tom Boehnen asked the radon group to work with department staff to develop recommendations for code revisions to the council at a future meeting.

It was requested by Joe Stein that we start a separate committee to start working on them now as there are many being done in the Madison area. We asked committee and they agreed to the concept. Volunteers included Gene Shumann, Joe Stein, and Pat Casey.

Bill Wilke talked about cast iron pipe material requirements in the code. He and others are attempting to meet current CISPI and ASTM standards.   He stated what current standards require to be met for cast iron. He is stating that Wisconsin Plumbing Code standards need to be updated to recognize new construction methods. Wisconsin is allowing "sub-standard" materials to be used as we have not updated the newest standard. 2007 standard is in publication right now. Mike Beckwith stated that we need to update them and that we have a plan to do so. If we need input on the new standard we can contact the cast iron industry individuals attending the meeting for assistance. The new standard includes standards for labeling in more detail so it can be determined which foundry made it and also requires testing of raw materials and finished product for radiation.

3. Tom Boehnen. asked for review and a motion to accept the progress report from the December meeting. The motion was made by Pat Casey and seconded by Rudy Petrowitsch

4. Commerce Update
Lynita Docken reported that long time employee of Safety and Buildings, Jim Wehinger, passed away this month and will be greatly missed by the Department and the cross connection control industry.

The draft of direct forfeiture is ready. It was handed out. We want to table discussion on this matter until other subjects are gone over by people who are in attendance at today’s meeting.

Tracer wire requirements have been requested to be included in the code change and possibly an emergency rule to address the how’s and why’s of installation. Tom Couttreau. said there was a meeting with digger’s hotline and the installation methods of this seems to be very confusing. A meeting was set up for this Friday to discuss options and suggestions.

Don Oremus gave an update on the Hepvo valve. A waterless trap, it was installed in his house for two months. Looking at possible experimental installation in the Madison area. We can put a number of conditions on it if necessary. Don Oremus passed out some handouts on World Health Association. Gary Duran talked about its use. He represents this product. They applied for an alternate, but due to recent conversations with the department, the request is now experimental. After a number of months of use, they will come back to the council with the results. Rudy asked about grease usage with this product. Don O. said they are careful about use of grease in their home while he used it. Gary said there have been modifications made since Don has used this in his house.

Jim Miller talked about web scheduling and getting plans done. Also that training is completed tomorrow.

Tom Boehnen. brought up air admittance valves. Don Oremus brought up information on them at the last meeting. Discussion was to continue.

5. Air Admittance Valve Discussion
Don Oremus reported that there may be concern with positive or negative pressures in the room as compared with exterior atmospheric pressures.

Randy Dahmen, Safety and Buildings commercial building plan reviewer and HVAC specialist, talked about pressure differentials in buildings. He stated that the home furnace has a static pressure of positive one-quarter inch. This is the standard positive pressure. Buildings may be under negative pressure because of exhaust fans and there is not enough make up air to compensate. Some buildings should be under negative pressure. A garage for example, and then are there buildings that should carry a positive pressure. How much negative or positive pressure should be in a building? Dahmen stated that it’s best to have a positive pressure.

Question was asked on what the exact issue was. Boehnen questioned if there are enough concerns over the use of AAV to not include them in the code draft, or should we keep them as an alternate. Docken talked about hospital staff had concerns on pressure differences in health care.   The pressure in a small room could be the same as in the duct work. Two-inch difference on the outlet of the trap, or 4 inches on the inlet the water could go up the inlet of the drain.

Jim Piscula talked about documented failures that they have on record. He checked since the last meeting, and in 2006 they had a return of 30 to 40 valves to Studor. There was about 30,000 valves sold in 2006 in Wisconsin. Then he tested the ones that were returned to Studor and 99 percent of the these tested fine. He stated it did not make a major difference whether or not they keep them in the code or as an alternate.

Dahmen came back to talk about a small room, could it be under the same amount of pressure in the small room as it is in the ductwork? Randy said that the supply needs to be approximately the same as the exhaust. Gary asked if one-quarter inch pressure differential is a lot. Randy said, “No, it can vary”.

Talked about static negative pressure, the question was asked how long the valve has been tested under negative pressure. Beckwith said he believed it was for 10 minutes It was asked what would happen if the valve was under negative pressure for an extended period of time (24) hours? They did not know. Then we looked at a positive pressure difference. The valve will open open at .3.   Have the valves been tested under continuous positive pressure? They said they have not.   Room condition could get to .3 in the room, both negative and positive. Will the valve work if it has been open for 6 months? Will it work after these pressures are taken off?   Piskula. said that the valve seat goes up and down a little each time the valve is used. If it is kept open, will dust accumulate in the seat?

Dahmen. said under diverse occupancies it could be subject to higher pressures.   It is all relative depending on the type of building. Will the valve open sooner than .3, if so, what is the valve actually opening up at? Tom Beckey said Oatey opens between .2 and .3.   Beckey also said there is no sewer gas in either positive or negative pressure case. They said there should be no gurgle complaints. Oremus. stated that after two years, his valve stayed shut because of suds, he thinks. Oatey has been selling since them since 1998 and has not noticed any problems. Oremus. said that because he is a plumber he noted that the drain was flowing slower. If there is a clog downstream, Beckey stated they should take the valve off and put a plastic bag on the opening and note if it expands or is sucked in when water is discharged into it. If it expands, it is because of a clogged drain.

Shumann asked if we approve the waterless trap, do we need an air admittance valve? They are not approved for any building that has a continuous pressure for more than 12 hours. Should we address what the positive pressure should be instead of just saying a “positive” pressure in our approval, the answer is “yes”. How much should we allow? Should we allow all, or not define it at all.

The code committee wants to know if they should be codified with buildings that have both negative and positive pressures. Can suds come up the sink drain when the valve is stuck open?

Beckey said water would not go down the drain if the building is under negative pressure. But, if you put enough water down the drain, the valve would open. The question is, is it equivalent to an open vent?

Boehnen asked if any other issues needed to be brought up. Zoulek talked about hot water, and an AAV was being used on a grease interceptor installation and the condensate locked the seat in place and he had to slam it to get it going again. When does the surface tension lock the gasket in place. It was asked by Boehnen if a vacuum test was done to see when the AAV would open.   Zoulek did not do a pressure test. There has been a test conducted in the standard it is approved under to freeze the AAV and it still had to work. Beckey said you could not build up water on the valve. The valve was put on a 3-inch vent on top of the roof.

Boehnen said we are at a point where we need to decide on recommendation on the AAV. Are we going to proceed with putting it in the code, or stay status quo? He did not hear of any health related problems. Docken reminded that options include everything from pulling it to writing it in the code.   Shumann asked Beckey about numbers of failures in Wisconsin. Beckey stated he is not the rep and does not know the numbers in Wisconsin. Beckey said they have more than 5 million in the field, they are ISO approved and have a database for failures. He thinks there have been 18 returned, and when they tested them many of the 18 worked. Beckey said the southeast is where most of the valves are being installed. Minnesota is where the valves are not allowed. Beckey is not aware of when or if that state will approve it.

Jim Peters stated that they are doing a private survey done by health dept personnel, as to what contaminants are in sewer gas and what levels of it would effect someone. The valve was approved for two months but the approval was pulled. Minnesota does not require a license in cities over 5000 to install plumbing. Michigan approved the AAV prior to Wisconsin.

Couttreau stated he thinks it is fine now, and not a good idea to codify it. He cannot buy into the process of allowing it by rule. He thinks there are too many things that change over time.

Couttreau made a motion to leave the AAV as an alternate approval for anther 5-year period. Rudy seconded the motion. Docken said we cannot leave it in the approval that they cannot be used under a positive pressure situation. This would have to be changed if we leave it as is. Alternate says subject to a positive pressure for more than 12 continuous hours.   Boehnen says he does not want to go over this all again in 5 years, he thinks we should just keep it at 5-year terms.

Motion passed. It was recommended to keep it as an alternate.

Oremus discussed a questionnaire for the plumbing industry which would document when the AAV fail. The form includes plumber’s name, license number, if you installed it with a test, any consumer complaints, etc. Jim P. said we could take it one step further to ask if the product could be evaluated by the manufacturer to see if it is really working or not. Piskula stated any time there is a bad valve, they get it. He said he will give us this information. Shumann stated that they should send them two valves for each one they sent in that they think is bad. Piskula said they would consider this. Beckey said the same that they would be willing to test the valves that we are getting to see if they are working or not. He thanked the committee for listening to him today.

6. Administrative Forfeiture
Docken presented handout on administrative forfeiture. This is for anything in 145.06.

Oremus. thinks the fee is too low for the first offense.

Elverman, stated he worked on this legislation to get it through. He stated the legislators did not want the fine more than $2000. He thinks a $100 fine is not enough to make anyone pay attention. Boehnen asked about item 2, in the design profession, they are having a difficult time finding qualified people to do the work. Does plumbing have the same problem in finding people to be plumbers? Casey said there are apprentices who are ready to go to work, but there are not enough of JP to do the work.

Elverman said that as we gave the authority to state inspectors, the discretion ability would be tough to determine what to charge. However, he thinks there would be fewer appeals if the price was set. If fines were not set, people would appeal why they got the $500 fine versus the $1000 fine.

These rules do not affect the Utility Contractor. Can we write a rule that would fine them?

Fee amounts were changed in the draft. Lynita has these changes in her draft.

There is no statute of limitations regarding the time period between violations.

7. Code Changes Discussion
In 82.21, the council discussed existing systems language. Does a yard hydrant, that was installed back when we allowed them to be served by an 9d and hose connection vacuum breaker need to be brought up to current rules? The department currently allows it to remain if the installation was done when the code allowed it. This is similar to dental units which we allowed a ASSE 1012 at one time. How does the inspector know if the installation was done when the code allowed it? Should there be dates installed in the rule stating when rules changed as noted above so we know when the inspector can require them to update it?

Petrowitsch wants to know why we change the code if there is no good reason to say what was legal before could not be proven to be bad.

Jeff Beiriger spoke about the tracer wire law. He is a lobbyist that was involved in drafting this legislation. He stated that at this point that there is no clear rule on how it should be done. They did not want separate rules written in each municipality stating how it should be done. The challenge is to get some uniformity on how these rules should be enforced. He wants any interested parties to show up and give their knowledge to how this should be done. The questions he raised are:

What is gauge of & composition of it.
Q) What should the color be for the wire, (blue for sanitary and red for water)
Q) What about coating of wire
Q ) What about splices. They should be waterproof, wire nuts are not acceptable
Q) Does the tracer need to be attached, above it, below it, etc.
Q) Where should it be terminated, curb, property line, where? Outside of the building,
Q) Should the system be tested?
Q) If it is not installed, who writes the orders and who is responsible to put it in.

Meeting concluded at 2:40pm.
[These minutes are subject to approval at a future meeting of the Council.]

Tuesday, December 19, 2006, Thompson Commerce Center, Madison, Wisconsin
Attendees: Biesek, Arthur / League of Wisconsin Municipalities - P; Boehnen, Thomas / American Society of Plumbing Engineers - Wisconsins - P; Casey, Patrick / Wisconsin State AFL-CIO - P; Jenkins, Hal / City of Milwaukee - P; Jones Dave; Kowalke, Gary / Plumbing Heating and Cooling Contractors Milwaukee Plumbing Association - Wisconsin - A; Kuhn, Jeff / Plumbing Mechanical Sheet Metal Contractors Alliance - P; Petrowitsch, Rudolf / American Society of Sanitary Engineers - Wisconsin - P; Shumann, Gene / Shumann and Associates - P; Viola, David / Plumbing Manufacturers Institute - A; Zoulek, Joseph Plumbing Heating and Cooling Contractors Milwaukee Plumbing Association - Wisconsin - P.

P/A/Ex/Alt = present, absent, excused, sent alternate.

Alternates and Guests: Bolt, Jeff / Wisconsin Healthcare Engineers; Fulkerson, James / Wisconsin Healthcare Engineers; Otter, Marcella / UW Madison; Stein, Joe / Madison Water Utility; Husar, Richard / City of Milwaukee; Thomas, Alan / Cast Iron Soil Pipe Institute; Piskula, Jim / Badgerland Trading Company; Pagel, Darin / Northlands UDC Inspector.

S&B staff: Docken, Lynita / Program Manager - Plumbing / Pools; Kaminski, Roman / Program Manager - Powts; Miller, Jim / Plumbing Section Chief; Oremus, Don / Plumbing Consultant; Beckwith, Mike / Product Reviewer.

1. Welcome, Introductions and Announcements: Meeting was called to order at 9:05 a.m. Boehnen welcomed the members and asked that everyone introduce themselves.

2. Public Input: Two statements were made. a. Support was offered for the Affidavit of Testing? concept that was to be discussed by council members. Flexibility for rural inspectors is needed due to size of territory covered and need for timely inspections. b. Concern was offered about disposal of chemicals into plumbing systems. Federal Environmental Protection Agency and Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources are beginning to work on this issue. How hospitals are required to handle and dispose of chemicals was used as an example of the complexity of this issue.

3. Commerce / Agency Update: Miller and Docken provided the Commerce update. Miller discussed the stop work/stop use process being implemented by the department. He also discussed plan review workload issues and the web-based application process being implemented. Docken discussed multi-purpose piping as related to the 2006 IBC. She also mentioned that the storm code? will be effective 04/01/07 and that the four-year license is drawing attention from some that are attempting to budget based on the new fee structure.

4. Progress Report Approval: The previous meeting summary was approved with one minor revision.

5. Code Revision Suggestion List Review: The suggestion list with rankings developed by council members was distributed. The top ranked issues will be reviewed at a future council meeting.

6. Affidavit of Testing: Council members agreed that the concept had merit and that a code revision should be made to allow for use of an affidavit under certain conditions.

6. Air Admittance Valves: Don Oremus provided a handout and presented background information on valve performance. Jim Piskula provided a handout and stated support for revising the code to allow the valves without the need for an alternate product approval. Council members chose to table further discussion on this issue until a future meeting.

7. Issue List Discussion: Council members discussed several issues related to categories of license needed to perform various tasks. Discussion centered on what work a Restricted Appliance plumber could perform. Other discussion focused on whether there is a need or desire to add specialty categories to the Master Plumber license. Docken was given an assignment to research Pass/Fail rates for the master plumber exams.

8. Next Meeting, Agenda and Assignments: The next meeting is scheduled for February 27, 2007. Agenda will include further review of the issue list and report out of assignments. [Future meeting date â€“ April 18, 2007.]

7. Adjournment: The meeting adjourned at 2:30 p.m.

Joint Meeting Plumbing Advisory Code Council (PACC) and PACC Stormwater Workgroup Tuesday, June 22, 2004, 9 am 2:30 pm Thompson Commerce Center, Room 201 W. Washington Ave., Madison Wisconsin / / This summary is subject to approval at a future council meeting.

Joint Meeting Plumbing Advisory Code Council (PACC) and PACC Stormwater Workgroup, December 18, 2003, 9 am - 2:30 pm, Thompson Commerce Center, Room 3B, 201 W. Washington Ave., Madison

Plumbing Council Attendees: Member Name / Representing
P = present; A = absent; Ex = excused, notified staff as being unable to attend; Alt. = alternate sent.
Biesek, Art / League of Wisconsin Municipalities P
Boehnen, Thomas Ex
Davis, Jim / Technical Advisor Ex
Kowalke, Gary / Plumbing Contractors A
Krowski, Mark / City of Milwaukee Ex
Kuhn, Jeff / Plbg. & Mech. Heating Contractors P
Macejkovic, Steve / Technical Advisor EX
McCullough, Clint / Plumbing Contractors EX
Newirth, Alex / AFL-CIO Plumbers / Labor ALT
Petrowitsch, Rudy / ASSE EX
Schlieve, Dale / Wisconsin Soc. of Prof. Designers P
Shumann, Gene P
Viola, Dave / PMI A
Zoulek, Joe / PHCC & MPA of Wisconsin P

Stormwater Workgroup:
Mazen M. Amer A
Tom C. Cottreau EX
Wisconsinllie Gonwa A
Dan Jensen EX
Bob Pups EX
Mary Ann Lowndes A
Jim Wolf P

Guests:
Luedeke, Jim / Wausau Concrete P
Boldt, Jeff / WHEA P
Fulkerson, James / WHEA P
Stein, Joe / Madison Water Utility P

Staff:
Docken, Lynita P
MacCubbin, Jean P
Miller, Jim P
Stanlick, Harold P
Mike Beckwith P
Glen Jones A
Lenny Kanter P
Dan Kraft P
Jim Zickert P

1. Welcome, Introductions, Announcements and Review of Agenda: In the absence of the chair Tom Boehnen, Joe Zoulek opened the meeting at 9:10 a.m.; there were no announced changes to the agenda. Self-introductions of attendees were made at this time.

2. Period for Public Comment: Joe Stein from the Madison Water Utility brought up a number of items for future code revision consideration. He noted that they are seeing a number of new labs where containment would be needed; these labs are usually ones where various research is being undertaken Wisconsinth regard to bio-hazards and grants under homeland security or NIH requirements. Most have toxic environments and are multiple labs, being in suites for example as at the new UW Veterinary Medicine Bldg. Discussion followed and Docken summarized that these issues could be considered for the next "code fix-up package " planned for after the stormwater rules become effective.

A second issue Stein brought up was the handling of the chemical feed on specific boilers. He proposed some changes for s. Comm 82.41; discussion followed and this too would be saved for the next rule revision package.

Shumann brought up the issue regarding the lengthy Appendix in ch. Comm 82 and asked if members would like to see it smaller, larger or done away with altogether. Most agreed that some of the sketches needed updating to be more informative and specific to the code section. Most felt that they routinely refer people with questions to specific sections of the Appendix. One drawback mentioned was that since only a few options are listed as sketches, some users feel that other options are not allowed; this needs to be made clear.

Wisc. Health Care Engineers, would like to see the council revisit the domestic hot water issues for healthcare facilities, particularly with regard to chlorination systems and the temperature of 140 degree F. being possibly too high.

3. Approval of Progress Report of 10/08/03: MOTION by Shumann / Biesek to accept the progress report as distributed. Passed unanimously. Zickert noted that s. Comm 82.36 (9) notes a 4-inch sphere; the staff team has since recommended a 6-inch sphere. The progress report will so note this more recent recommendation.

4. Commerce Update:Docken provided the folloWisconsinng reports.

a) Advance Plumbing Credential. Marge Wood of Wisconsin Technical College Systems was in attendance to give an update on the most recent recommendations with regard to post-apprenticeship education and certificate. Briefly, she noted that the idea came from a desire to promote the trade, elevate the industry and career path as well as promote life-long learning. It is just another mechanism to institutionalize continuing education. The certificate upon completion, in any of the 6 tracks would be issued by Dept. of Workforce Development. Incentives should be given to complete the courses, such as opting out of some testing for the MP exam. There is some statutory language with regard to MP 'test' and the two departments are looking at ways to either change or interpret this rule.

Questions and answers followed:
- How will the course be offered? Both online and classroom.
- What if any tie in to BS or AS degree? It is planned that one could get an AS in addition to the certificate.
- What are the tracks? Business, mechanical and environmental.
- How will the apprentice instructors be notified? Most already are aware of the plan; some will be teaching the courses.
- Will any other state recognize the classes or the certificate? Yes, the group did an evaluation of neighboring states and it appears that these courses would apply there as well.
- Is the test for MP the same if someone obtained this certificate? It is planned that perhaps portions of the MP exam may be waived; this is still being worked out.
- What are other benefits to such certificate? The MP could expand their knowledge so they can move from shop to shop or expand business.
- Could these courses count toward continuing education? Yes, this could be as early as this spring.

b) Apprentice Fair. Docken reported that she has been working with Randy Lorge, tech school instructor, on the idea of having an Apprentice Fair this spring. One possibly would be that a class could be a field trip for hands-on learning opportunities; soil infiltration, friction loss, stormwater and new products were ideas floated.

c) Comm 83 code changes. Docken reported that some fix ups to this POWTS chapter will become effective 2/1/04 and Wisconsinll affect upcoming continuing education and training.

d) Comm 5 rule revision. Docken reported that this rule revision package has been sent to the Legislature to be assigned to committees. The rule revisions include the continuing education requirements for sprinkler fitters; grandfathering clause for commercial plumbing inspector license within a one-year window.

e) Training for state staff. Docken reported that there will be stormwater sizing, stormwater modeling and enforcement training for state staff in March.

f) State law re: one- and 2-family inspections. Docken reported that this bill became law for both construction and plumbing inspection in municipalities of less than 2,500 population. She gave an overview of how municipalities could opt out and the county previously could do that work; that option is not longer available and the state plans to contract with inspection agencies and all municipalities would not need to be involved. A question was asked if this included just new construction or additions/remodels as well. Staff will check on this and so communicate.

g) Witer training. Staff are involved in an aggressive training schedule, Miller reported. So far, many of the classes have been well-attended.

h) Field operations. Stanlick noted that Jim Wehinger is now back to work and that most field staff are involved in the winter training.

i) SB 145 pump installers. A question was asked on the status of the proposal regarding (licensing of) pump installers. Docken believed that the bill may be dead as written; she heard that the WDNR did not support it in it's current form.

5. Preliminary Public Hearing Draft, ss. Comm 82.35- 82.365. An updated draft of the public hearing draft was circulated and Docken reported that the three umbrella councils (UDC, MFDCC and CBCC) had reviewed it and gave their 'go ahead' to submit for public hearing (although no formal votes were taken at each meeting). She then proceeded to go through the items that were presented to those groups with an accompanied PowerPoint presentation. She noted that the plan is to have the draft effective well before the October 1, 2004 date of the one acre or less rule.

Questions were asked about how this rule would effect municipalities that already have rules in place, like Milwaukee, for example. Docken felt that staff will learn more about these circumstances during the upcoming training sessions on stormwater; most municipalities, she thought, did not have rules regarding the plumbing option of stormwater. Also asked was how to handle the plumbing portion? Docken noted that ch. NR 151 is a minimum standard and would apply on sites where EPA rules are required.

Table 2.64-1 piping. The change provides for plan review fees for stormwater connected to a building based on piping. It was noted that another amendment should be made for clearwater drain systems.

Tables 82.20-1 and -2. Changes were made to outline when submittals are required for stormwater and clearwater drain systems by the depart and agents, or agents with permission from the department.

s. Comm 82.36(3) Design. Three requirements are listed, Docken noted: the 100 year storm event and a sketch was drafted for clarification; the 10 year event and training will show how to read rainfall rate.

Table 82.70-1. Change was made so that reuse would not be allowed for food crops.

s. Comm 82.36 (5) flow rate calculations. Docken noted that the volume calculation would be based on the 2 year, 2-hour and 100 year, 2-hour as per WDNR. March training on SLAMM would be helpful here.

s. Comm 82.36 (6) All tables have been updated based on pitch, diameter and gpm.

s. Comm 82.36 (6) (c). The Infiltration workgroup changed this to be the 24-hour storm event.

s. Comm 82.36 (7) (d) 6. Six inches of storage would be allowed in parking lots.

s. Comm 82.36 (9) (b) 3. A lengthy discussion took place with regard to inlets and grates. Docken focused on ADA requirements with Neenah Foundry and the Milwaukee code; now both allow the passage of a 6-inch sphere like the building code. A sketch drafted for use in the Appendix was discussed and it was noted that it was confusing since the grate is not horizontal, on a walking surface and appeared to depict the pipe apron Wisconsinth a grate. Docken will update the sketch for use in the Appendix.

s. Comm 82.36 (9) (e) 3. A. A question was asked about the adoption of ANSI A117.95 (1998) as in the building code vs. references to ADA.

s. Comm 82.36 (13)(b) Sump venting. Discussion followed on whether a solid cover required venting. Since Clearwater traps are vented, sumps can have airtight covers.

s. Comm 82.36 (13) Operation and maintenance plans. Docken circulated a copy of a plan she obtained from a stormwater submittal; a similar one-page plan would be submitted for such a stormwater drain system.

s. Comm 82.365 Infiltration for stormwater and clear water. Docken noted that most of the investigative information gathered would be based on ch. Comm 85 soil evaluation. Discussion followed on the 3 foot and 5 foot separation distances as well as the ratings for the most restrictive layer of soil. It was decided to revise Table 82.36-1 and -2 to reflect the format in Table 83.44 that CSTs are familiar with using.

Theses were all of the items that Docken presented to the Umbrella Councils; members were then asked if there were items they still needed to discuss.

s. Comm 84.20 (5)(p) 1. Staff Wisconsinll check if ASME valve worked for only ASME approved vessel.

Zoulek then asked members if they were ready to move the package to public hearing and if so, a motion would be in order. MOTION by Kuhn / Biesek that the Council agreed to go to public hearing. Passed.

It was then asked when staff thought that date would be. Docken noted that Bob DuPont would be reviewing the draft over the holidays and MacCubbin estimated that possibly mid-March for a public hearing date.

6. Next Meeting(s) and Proposed Agenda: No future meetings were set. A meeting would be convened after comments from the public hearing are received.

MacCubbin queried the members in attendance about their desire on how they would like to receive the agenda and progress reports in the future. The rules are as follows: Most had access to web; about half wanted the e-mail and hard copies (as how they receive this information now); the other half wanted hard copies.

7. Adjournment: The meeting adjourned on a motion by Kuhn / Shumann at 2 p.m.

Submitted by: Jean MacCubbin, Code Consultant to the Council. [This progress was approved at the 06/22/04 Council meeting.]

Joint Meeting Plumbing Advisory Code Council (PACC) and PACC Stormwater Workgroup

Wednesday, October 8, 2003, 9:00 am - 2:30 pm, Thompson Commerce Center, Rm 3B, 201 W. Washington Ave., Madison

Member Name / Representing P/A
Biesek, Art / League of Wisconsin Municipalities P
Boehnen, Thomas Ex
Davis, Jim / Technical Advisor Ex
Kowalke, Gary / Plumbing Contractors A
Krowski, Mark / City of Milwaukee Ex
Kuhn, Jeff / Plbg. & Mech. Heating Contractors P
Macejkovic, Steve / Technical Advisor EX
McCullough, Clint / Plumbing Contractors EX
Newirth, Alex / AFL-CIO Plumbers / Labor ALT
Petrowitsch, Rudy / ASSE EX
Schlieve, Dale / Wisconsin Soc. of Prof. Designers P
Shumann, Gene P
Viola, Dave / PMI A
Zoulek, Joe / PHCC & MPA of Wisconsin P

Guests
Luedeke, Jim / Wausau Concrete P
Boldt, Jeff / WHEA P
Fulkerson, James / WHEA P
Stein, Joe / Madison Water Utility P
Pody, Louie (alt. Local 75)
Wood, Marge / WTSC P

Stormwater Workgroup
Bob Pups EX
Mazen M. Amer A Tom C. Cottreau EX
Wisconsinllie Gonwa A
Dan Jensen EX
Mary Ann Lowndes A
Jim Wolf P

Staff P/A
Docken, Lynita P
MacCubbin, Jean P
Miller, Jim P
Stanlick, Harold P
Mike Beckwith P
Glen Jones A
Lenny Kanter P
Dan Kraft P
Jim Zickert P

P = present; A = absent; Ex = excused, notified staff as being unable to attend; Alt. = alternate sent.

WHEA, Wisconsin. Health Care Engineers, would like to see the council revisit the domestic hot water issues for healthcare facilities, particularly with regard to chlorination systems and the temperature of 140 degree F. being possibly too high.

3. Approval of Progress Report of 10/08/03: MOTION by Shumann / Biesek to accept the progress report as distributed. assed unanimously. Zickert noted that s. Comm 82.36 (9) notes a 4-inch sphere; the staff team has since recommended a 6-inch sphere. The progress report winll so note this more recent recommendation.

4. Commerce Update: Docken provided the following reports.

a) Advance Plumbing Credential. Marge Wood of Wisconsin. Technical College Systems was in attendance to give an update on the most recent recommendations with regard to post-apprenticeship education and certificate. Briefly, she noted that the idea came from a desire to promote the trade, elevate the industry and career path as well as promote life-long learning. It is just another mechanism to institutionalize continuing education. The certificate upon completion, in any of the 6 tracks would be issued by DWD, Dept. of Workforce Development. Incentives should be given to complete the courses, such as opting out of some testing for the MP exam. There is some statutory language with regard to MP 'test' and the two departments are looking at ways to either change or interpret this rule.

Questions and answers followed:

How Wisconsinll the course be offered? Both on-line and classroom.

What if any tie in to BS or AS degree? It is planed that one could get an AS in addition to the certificate.

What are the tracks? Business, mechanical and environmental.

How winll the apprentice instructors be notified? Most already are aware of the plan; some Wisconsinll be teaching the courses.

Will any other state recognize the classes or the certificate? Yes, the group did an evaluation of neighboring states and it appears that these courses would apply there as well.

Is the test for MP the same if someone obtained this certificate? It is planned that perhaps portions of the MP exam may be waived; this is still being worked out.

What are other benefits to such certificate? The MP could expand their knowledge so they can move from shop to shop or expand business.

Could these courses count toward continuing education? Yes, this could be as early as this spring.

b) Apprentice Fair. Docken reported that she has been working Wisconsinth Randy Lorge, tech school instructor, on the idea of having an Apprentice Fair this spring. One possibly would be that a class could be a field trip for hands-on learning opportunities; soil infiltration, friction loss, stormwater and new products were ideas floated.

c) Comm 83 code changes. Docken reported that some fix ups to this POWTS chapter will become effective 2/1/04 and will affect upcoming continuing education and training.

e) Training for state staff. Docken reported that there will be stormwater sizing, stormwater modeling and enforcement training for state staff in March.

g) Winter training. Staff are involved in an aggressive training schedule, Miller reported. So far, many of the classes have been well-attended.

h) Field operations. Stanlick noted that Jim Wehinger is now back to work and that most field staff are involved in the Wisconsinnter training.

5. Preliminary Public Hearing Draft, ss. Comm 82.35- 82.365. An updated draft of the public hearing draft was circulated and Docken reported that the three umbrella councils (UDC, MFDCC and CBCC) had reviewed it and gave their 'go ahead' to submit for public hearing (although no formal votes were taken at each meeting). She then proceeded to go through the items that were presented to those groups Wisconsinth an accompanied PowerPoint presentation. She noted that the plan is to have the draft effective well before the October 1, 2004 date of the one acre or less rule.

Table 2.64-1 piping. The change provides for plan review fees for stormwater connected to a building based on piping. It was noted that another amendment should be made for clearwater drain systems.

Tables 82.20-1 and -2. Changes were made to outline when submittals are required for stormwater and clearwater drain systems by the depart and agents, or agents with permission from the department.

Table 82.70-1. Change was made so that reuse would not be allowed for food crops.

s. Comm 82.36 (6) All tables have been updated based on pitch, diameter and gpm.

s. Comm 82.36 (6) (c). The Infiltration workgroup changed this to be the 24-hour storm event.

s. Comm 82.36 (7) (d) 6. Six inches of storage would be allowed in parking lots.

s. Comm 82.36 (9) (b) 3. A lengthy discussion took place with regard to inlets and grates. Docken focused on ADA requirements with Neenah Foundry and the Milwaukee code; now both allow the passage of a 6-inch sphere like the building code. A sketch drafted for use in the Appendix was discussed and it was noted that it was confusing since the grate is not horizontal, on a walking surface and appeared to depict the pipe apron with a grate. Docken will update the sketch for use in the Appendix.

s. Comm 82.36 (9) (e) 3. A. A question was asked about the adoption of ANSI A117.95 (1998) as in the building code vs. references to ADA.

s. Comm 82.36 (13)(b) Sump venting. Discussion followed on whether a solid cover required venting. Since Clearwater traps are vented, sumps can have airtight covers.

Theses were all of the items that Docken presented to the Umbrella Councils; members were then asked if there were items they still needed to discuss.

s. Comm 84.20 (5)(p) 1. Staff will check if ASME valve worked for only ASME approved vessel.

6. Next Meeting(s) and Proposed Agenda: No future meetings were set. A meeting would be convened after comments from the public hearing are received.

MacCubbin queried the members in attendance about their desire on how they would like to receive the agenda and progress reports in the future. The rules are as follows: Most had access to web; about Â½ wanted the e-mail and hard copies (as how they receive this information now); the other Â½ wanted hard copies.

7. Adjournment: The meeting adjourned on a motion by Kuhn / Shumann at 2:00 p.m.

Submitted by: Jean MacCubbin, Code Consultant to the Council. [This progress will be the subject of approval at a future Council meeting.]

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